[Uncorrected transcript]

[00:00:00] Alicia: This podcast was made possible by the generous support of our Patreon patrons. They provide us with the resources we need to produce each episode. You can join them at nine zero miles from needles.com/patreon.

[00:00:25] Bouse Parker: The sun is a giant blow torch Aimed at your face. There ain't no shade, nowhere. Let's hope you brought enough water. It's time for 90 miles from needles, the desert protection podcast with your hosts, Chris Clark and Alicia pike.

[00:00:43] Chris: Hey, this is Chris. Welcome to another episode of 90 miles from needles and we had been it. We were spectacularly off the mark in the episode we put out on June 20th. Entitled what's happening to the monsoon in which Alicia and I both lamented the effect of climate change on those regular summer storms.

And wondered aloud if it was ever going to rain on us again. And the desert sure. Showed us in the last two weeks as I speak, we have had storms that unleashed as much as two inches of rain in a day on some places in the desert. Closing all of Death Valley National Park and doing major damage to roads through Mojave National Preserve causing flooding in Las Vegas, including flooding inside some of the casinos and significant rainfall throughout the rest of the desert.

Especially including places that are well used to monsoon such as Tucson and Phoenix. We're a little embarrassed at our prognostication coming spectacularly, not true in such short order, but we are happy for the rain. We are very, very glad that we have not heard of any serious injury, though. It may be that some out there have been unreported, certainly in the closing of the parks, inconvenience and expense have been the worst things that have happened.

And we are grateful for. We are also thinking of putting out subsequent episodes in which we can be just as wrong as we were with the what's happening to the monsoon episode. We're thinking of an episode called “this podcast will never break 500 Patreon subscribers.” And another episode entitled “is Henry Kissinger immortal?” Close to where Alicia and I live we have had spectacular thunderstorms. Quite a bit of rain, Lara and I have had more rain in our yard in the last week than we had in the two and a half years prior to that, and things are greening up nicely in the desert, including the mosquitoes . I have my first mosquito bite in several years on my left elbow.

Other kinds of wildlife is waking up toads and insects and fattening. Have a couple of saguaros planted in my yard. This is not part of the saguaro's range, but it will be as the climate changes. And so in anticipation, I have a couple of them planted in my yard and they are looking better this week than they ever have the same is true for a lot of other plants.

Couple of Ironwood trees that I grew from seed put on eight inches of growth in the last. The desert is rejoicing, my friends, and all it took was some water falling out of the. While the desert is welcome. The rain, the financial damage caused to infrastructure, especially in National Parks. And the California desert is really no joke at all.

We may be looking at 30 to 40 to 50 million in damage to roads that people count on every day to visit the parks or to make their way through from one end to the other. And while some roads are being opened, even as I. Others such as Cal baker road, the main north south thoroughfare through Mojave National Preserve may take as long as the beginning of next year to be fixed.

It all depends on what happens in the next few months. Cause we're not done with the monsoon season. We still have perhaps five weeks, maybe more to go before these focused, catastrophic and wonderful thunderstorms come to an end for the. To get a sense of what the Rain has done to National Park infrastructure in the California desert Alicia.

And I spent some time with Joshua Tree National Park superintendent David Smith at Alicia's favorite place, Indian Cove on the north end of Joshua Tree. We appreciate David's time and think you'll enjoy what he had to say.

We're talking here with David Smith, superintendent of Joshua Tree National Park, who is, I understand pulling double or triple duty, the last couple of weeks describing for the public and the press and anyone else who's interested, just what's going on in the desert parks in California with the monsoon damage of the last week and a half.

Yeah,

[00:05:04] David: man, it is. It's been crazy. I talk a lot to my cocompatriots up at Death Valley and at Mojave because we, uh, we generally try to share resources as much as possible with each other. We are stronger together than we are in as individuals and, you know, Death Valley is going to be closed for.

Probably another week, at least before they can open up the state highway going across it Mojave, I don't know when their date for opening up that park, all roads and that park are closed right now because of significant, significant road damage. And you know, here at, at Joshua Tree for the first time in.

Probably four or five years, we've seen some Monsoonal patterns that have actually caused massive flooding in the Pinto basin, significant damage to the campgrounds and then road degradation throughout the park. So I, I am, I am blessed to have a really effective road crew that jumps on it right away. And we had some fill that was stocked up inside the park to be able to repair some of the damage.

So then my concern is what happens is next to roads. If we get a lot of drainage and it starts undercutting the roads, then we lose the roads altogether. And with Death Valley, which had a. I think Mike Reynolds is calling it the thousand year flood. The most rain Death Valley has ever had before. You know, there's nothing you can really do about that, but at least with us, we just, we had, you know, a few half inches rainfalls.

It allowed us to get our crews out there to get a handle on, on road protection.

[00:06:31] Chris: That's great. I remember. I think maybe it was 2013 mm-hmm that there was a closure south of the cottonwood entrance and yeah,

[00:06:40] David: that was that canyon washed out. I think it was like 15, 16. It was kind of fun to check out the first day because the wash, you know, it's, it's the desert.

So, you know, what is a wash? A wash is a very, temporary dynamic thing that moves around it definitely moved across the canyon and went underneath the road and just have this road hanging out there for two or three meters over the wash. And then to watch the entire thing collapse down was like, wow, this is the power of nature, but it takes a while to get contracts.

And plans to fix a road. So we were closed for about nine and we luckily were able, we still had that one lane that was operating. We didn't have to shut down. I, I, you know, I think about parks like Yellowstone right now, which, you know, significant impact to that park, to the communities around that park, to all the businesses that support that and all the people that want to go up to Yellowstone.

These are truly crazy times when it comes to fire and floods and drought across the Western United States and what it's doing to, to our parking.

[00:07:38] Chris: we put together an episode. Um, last time around that included Alicia showing me some of her favorite spots right in here at Indian Cove. Yeah. After, um, it was the morning after the first of the monsoon storms hit here.

Yeah. And just the degree to which the desert had come alive. was really spectacular.

[00:08:00] David: So, so explain to me how frogs can have tad poles in like a day. That is what's amazing to me. I was up at Barker dam this weekend. It was the day after a rainstorm. And there were tad poles all over the place.

[00:08:14] Alicia: Well, look at the nuptial flight of termites when it rains.

Yes. All of a sudden it's just this influx of yeah. And it has it has to happen quickly 'cause right. As you know, the window of time is so narrow, so right, right.

[00:08:26] Chris: This because they don't bother with Tinder. All that swiping

takes time.

[00:08:30] Alicia: no swiping,

[00:08:31] David: right? Yeah. Ba bump bump

[00:08:33] Chris: but, uh, yeah, it's remarkable. The degree to which things just respond

[00:08:37] David: right away.

So we are we're up at Indian Cove. We're looking out over the desert and I, I run up here a lot and the amount of green that has occurred in the last seven days is striking. It's like a carpet. It's like a carpet. Is there ya know true. A lot of it is exotic grasses that are coming up down there. Um, but they do provide some nutrients to our, our, both, our, our ungulates and our other rodents inside the park.

So hopefully they're taking advantage of those fresh, those fresh shoots that are coming up.

[00:09:07] Chris: So what kind of, uh, What kind of damage are we looking at for the California desert parks in general? I'm assuming that manzanar has been missed

[00:09:17] David: so far. Yeah. Manzanar. When they have that big snow melt coming down from the Sierras, they will have flooding issues going through the gardens there at manzanar, which can be really destructive for.

You know, Joshua Tree for whatever reason, got hammered back in the eighties by flooding and the engineering that went into this park created really hardened surfaces. So as you drive through the Pinto basin, you will notice that we have lots of cement crossings where the water flows over the road. And they've been designed in such a way that instead of having a 90 degree drop off, you have these curved surfaces that make it much diff... more difficult for the water to destroy the road subsurface.

Um, so I think we are lucky in having dealt with. 30 years ago when the roads were reengineered in the eighties. And then in 2000, our roads are hardened. I think definitely in Mojave, I've been driving through that park now for, I don't know, three or 40 years, those roads were really in a state of degradation.

Right. And needed, needed a lot of love and reengineering. You know, this may be the opportunity for that. I mean, it's tragic to have to close down a, a park unit for so long and up in, in Death Valley. Uh, you know, with, with a thousand year event, like they had, I, I, the amount of rainfall that came down, there's really no engineering solution for that.

There's, there's nothing you can do. Um, I, so it, it is what it is, but I, I feel lucky right now if we continue to have normal monsoonal rain flows. Yeah. We will close the park every now and then when the. Crosses the road, like the other day I was down in, at, uh, Turkey flats, which is in the middle of the Pinto basin mm-hmm

And I was standing there with our road foreman and the waves going across the road were about two to three feet tall. And so there was white water on top of the waves as they were going along across the road. And it was, it was dry. We were standing, but I know up over the Hexies and the little San Bernardinos, there had been some rainstorms

30 minutes before and that water was just now reaching the Pinto Basin and flowing across the road at that time. There's there's not a lot you can do about that.

[00:11:18] Chris: Yeah. I wonder what the, what the fried liver wash canyon is looking like right

[00:11:22] David: about now. Yeah. I'd love to go up the canyon right now. I think that'd be really, really interesting, but fried liver was totally full of, of muck and, and water going across the road.

There was about a five mile stretch that was pretty solid crossing of, of mud and rock and debris going across the road. Yeah.

[00:11:39] Chris: I think I probably won't try to hike up into the canyon in the next week and a half,

[00:11:44] David: uh, with the temperatures still around 100, 105 during the daytime. I, I think for your safety, it would be really good to put it off.

Yeah. Maybe a full moon hike will be in your, uh, that sounds good. That sounds a little bit safer.

[00:11:54] Chris: Wait for a month at this point. You're right.

[00:11:56] Alicia: You had your chance last night,

[00:11:57] David: you had your chance. You didn't take advantage of it.

[00:12:01] Chris: So what are we looking at in regard to. The ability to devote money to fixing these things.

Is there a park service slush fund for extreme weather events?

[00:12:12] David: There, there are no slush funds. If someone has the illusion that there are big pots of money that the regional or, or Washington has for parks, it's not there. When we have disastrous fires, you know, we have to go to Congress and get emergency appropriations and the administration of course supports those types of things.

But those. It just, there's no budget for them to allow for that, that, that kind of stuff with the, the pandemic and some of the challenges in hiring people that we've had over the last year, there's a lot of positions have gone empty. And so, you know, there's, there's a little bit of money. Most parks have at the end of the year.

Now that kind of. Discretionary money that's left over, but it's not enough to build a multimillion dollar road project. I was hearing estimates from Death Valley looking at about $30 million in damage to all their roads around the park. And that's the operating budget for the park for about four years.

So no one has that kind of money. You're looking at special appropriations to cover that types of those kinds of funds. Luckily, recently we've seen a strong, um, highway. It's come out. The most recent bill that the house is considering today has money for resiliency, uh, for parks to deal specifically with global climate change.

So, you know, that may be a potential funding source that's out there there's GAOA the great American outdoors act that was earmarked for a lot of our deferred maintenance projects across the United States. These are catastrophic things. This is a little bit beyond my pay grade to figure out where the money's coming.

We can't hold a bake sale to, to cover these things. And we're gonna need probably to rethink how we do some things. And I, you know, here at, at Joshue tree, like I said, we are blessed to have had sizable events 30 years ago that allowed for engineering that allows the water to cross over. Uh, the road and not damage it, not all the parks are there right now.

When I worked in DC, there was a project to rebuild the road and I wanna say it was at Hatteras. It was one of the Southeast parks along the coast. And the public really wanted to have that road, that traditional road that had been there for, forever. And the superintendent said, you know what? It's not gonna be possible because this barrier island may not exist in 50 years.

And if we continue to throw money at this, we're not being good stewards of the treasury. And also it's not good for the park to continue to have to do this. It's just, it's a waste of money and she was kind of cutting edge. That was. 12 years ago, she was seeing that I think a lot of us are now getting to that point.

Like, well, the way we've done business for the last hundred years in National Parks, climate change changes that. And the way we're looking at Joshua Trees right now here, climate change has changed that we are aggressively looking at fire suppression, which includes the reduction of exotic weeds using mechanical tools.

And herbicides in wilderness areas in order to save these populations, that's something I would've never suggested 15 years ago or 20 years ago, but I'm to the point right now, if we have wildfire in these areas, we may lose Those refugia populations and then I'm not being a good steward, you know, we're we're right now, actually this week we have a youth Corps inside the park, collecting gallons and gallons of Joshua Tree seeds that we will store in a seed bank for the future.

We will potentially use those to grow Joshua Trees, to re-veg certain areas on north facing slopes at higher elevations. We may get to that point, but I'm really changing the way I think. Land management inside a park, which is contrary to what I studied 30 years ago, but may be appropriate for a changing climate.

Just back to Monsoonal rain. Since we're talking about monsoonal rains, as you probably know, we reopen 49 palms Oasis. I think last night we opened up the gates so it should be open to the public to be able to use again, we used to close down 49 palms for safety issues for people during the summertime. Cause we had a lot of accidents when people would, they would hike on really hot days and get in trouble.

Dog a year was dying on a dog a year, was dying on that trail. And actually I've, I've done many carry outs of both living and fatalities on that trail. So I I'm quite familiar with the dangers of hiking on that trail for the last couple of years, we've been closing it down specifically for Bighorn sheep purposes.

Mm-hmm . Traditional watering spots, you know, cow camp Barker dam have, have dried up. You know, this was the only place that had surface water inside the park that we knew of that the sheep could get to. And you know, that remember our mission of the park service can serve the resources, provide for their enjoyment.

We were taking 50% of our mission and stopping it because we recognize that we were going to really diminish the big horn sheep population inside the park. So that was a hard decision for me to make. Because I strongly believe that both sides of our organic act are equally important and we need to remember that, but I'm not doing my job as a steward.

If I allow the bighorn sheep population to be scared away from the only water source inside the park. But right now I can attest there's water and Barker dam. There's water out at keys, ranch, there's water flowing down rattlesnake canyon. We can't quite hear it from our location, but there is water up there right now.

Smith water has water in it. Oh, nice. And big horn sheep can benefit from those. What do you see

[00:17:19] Chris: as a result of these monsoons in Joshua Tree in the next few months? Just in terms of the natural.

[00:17:26] David: Yeah. Well, you're seeing it right now. You're seeing a Greenup of a lot of the exotic grasses, even here at the lower elevations inside the park.

I would imagine we're gonna have a pretty good flower season in the fall and okay. Won't tell anyone that. Okay. But you know, things like things like encelia we'll start popping out and of, you know, bladder pod always is pretty good in the fall for seeing things like that. But you know, a lot of these seeds have.

Um, done anything for quite some time, and this is a nice opportunity for them to get some headway. I don't think we'll have the fields of primroses and desert poppies. Mariposa lilies and things like that coming up. But a lot of the hardier woodier plants will start sending out flowers pretty soon. So I would imagine a pretty colorful fall.

It is crucial that our Joshua Trees and piñon-Juniper mix get some water in their systems. I, I don't know if you've been noticing the demise of junipers at the higher elevations in the park, but it's hard to find. Yeah, it's hard to find woody... It's hard to find trees at the higher elevations.

When I was younger working as a ranger here, back in the nineties, the pin forests were healthy and vibrant as was the junipers you go up there now it's, there's mortality of about a third of them. And that's caused by years and years and years of collective drought and the effect that it's having on.

And that's true for the Joshua Trees and the Mojave yuccas as well. They are all desert plants. They are well adapted for living in this location, but they are not well adapted for living without. So I think we'll see a little bit of regrowth. The creosote right now is turning from death into, uh, green, which is really pleasant to see.

Sometimes I forgot that this is a creosote desert too, 'cause it was also dead.

[00:19:06] Alicia: We've been asking everyone that we've been interviewed in these times where climate change is. Clearly having an impact on our everyday lives, where the world stage of politics is insane. And your pandemics, you know, the times we are living in yeah.

What keeps you going?

[00:19:26] David: Hmm. That's a really good question.

[00:19:29] Alicia: Inquiring minds want to know.

[00:19:31] David: I want, I am. I'm a good compartmentalizer in life. And I know that this agency has a really good mission and have it printed in front of my face. Every time I go into work and I read the mission and I read the organic act to remind me why I'm here.

This country has existed for as a, you know, 230 plus years believe in the constitution of this country. And that keeps me grounded. I go home at night. I love my family and I'm with my family and that gives me resilience. And then I, this is just, you know, self-help kind of things, but I run a lot and that helps clear my mind.

And especially if I'm running up in the park at higher elevations in the summertime, when it's cool in the morning, that definitely clears my mind and reminds me why I'm here. You know, being really mission oriented helps me having family helps me and using good exercise and I've hired some really smart people.

To be on our management team at the type our, our scientists and our chief ranger and the whole crew. They are just awesome. So I am surrounded by positive people that are confronted by challenges. They face that challenge and they move forward and there's something good on the other end. So if you're surrounded by positive people that are working for positive change, it's hard not to feel good.

So I feel good. And a lot of coffee.

[00:20:51] Alicia: There you go. I've seen you speak on several occasions to the community and your love and affection for nature is inspiring. And I just want through this podcast Uhhuh to share that with yeah. With the world, because there are so many people out there who have never even laid eyes on wilderness.

Right. And they're full grown adults. Right. So what could you say to inspire someone to be curious about coming out to the desert?

[00:21:18] David: Well, it's cheap. So my, my father taught me growing up to be very economical about things. And if you've got a miracle, that's just outside your door at Joshua Tree National Park and in the public lands around here, take a take advantage of that free.

Opportunity. They were talking about Bruce Springsteen tickets going for $5,000 and I'm like, oh my God, a walk-in rattlesnake canyon is free and you can hear tree frogs and you can watch water drip down from the side of the hill and you can see pinion Pines, and you can hopefully see big horn sheep on the top of the hill.

So I guess the economics speak to me a little bit, but it belongs. We got over 400 National Park service sites across the United States that are a tapestry of everything that is wonderful in this country. And often things that are painful, too. Take advantage of that and get out there and enjoy your property.

Enjoy your BLM properties that are around there. They belong to you. So get out there so that, that's what I would encourage people to do.

[00:22:19] Alicia: Excellent advice.

[00:22:28] Chris: As we prepared for our talk with superintendent David Smith of Joshua Tree National Park. We went to the social media site Reddit and asked people for questions. They'd like us to ask superintendent Smith. You can hear those questions and his answers on our next episode. After the break, the Great Salt Lake, one of the largest lakes in the world is drying up

when we get back, Alicia and I talk to Zachary Frankel, executive director of the Utah Rivers Council about the Great Salt Lake it's plight and what you and I can do to save the lake. We're joined by the 90 miles from needles studio dog crew, Heart and Dos, who can be heard sporadically throughout the interview having a little bit of a good time.

We'll be right back.

[00:23:43] announcer: This summer could see more dust storms as a result of the shrinking Great Salt Lake at a recent forum on the health and future of the Great Salt Lake. The speaker of the house warned of increasing dust storms. It's common sense that when you expose another three to 400 square miles of lake bed and the wind kicks up, you're gonna have.

The dust can impact any city along the Wasatch front, depending on the direction and intensity of the wind what's in that dust, some toxic chemicals, including arsenic, some of the materials that get kicked up, uh, in those dust storms, they are not healthy. There's one super easy solution. Put water back on that lake bed.

[00:24:22] Chris: There are a few places in the American desert more iconic than the Great Salt Lake. It's played a part in history from the Mormon migration and the establishment of Mormon communities throughout Utah, the establishment of the state of Utah itself, the linking of Pacific and Atlantic coast railroads on the north shore of the lake at Promontory point and my own personal history.

Who knows how much of my current life has been shaped by the fact that I looked out the window of our Chevy Malibu station wagon one afternoon in July of 1966 and saw an impossible expanse of salt water, and then an impossible expanse of salt. Couple of months ago, we spoke with Zachary Frankel, the executive director of the Utah Rivers Council about what's been happening to the great salt.

We sat on that interview for a couple of months, just because we had other episodes we needed to publish. First. I talked to him about that and he said, it's really okay. The longer you wait, the more of a record low, the Great Salt Lake will reach. He suggested that as the lake dries up without more water coming into it from its tributaries, like the Bear River, it was going to reach a new record low at some point this year.

And then it was gonna just break record after record for the rest of the summer. On July 3rd, 2022, the lake got a lot of press because it dropped to 4190.1 feet above sea level measured at the salt air resort, which is a picturesque place all by itself that we should cover in an episode as of 3:00 AM today, as I speak on August 14th, the lake has tied a previous record set three times earlier this month at 41 89 0.2.

Mr. Frankel is clearly better at predicting things than we are. We are happy to bring you our interview with Zach Frankel and please pay attention to what he says towards the end of the interview about what people like us can do to help out we'll have links to his website and other important places where you can get information on the Great Salt Lake in our show notes.

[00:26:38] Zach: I'm Zach Frankel. I'm the founder and executive director of the Utah Rivers Council. We're a 5 0 1 C three here in Salt Lake City. We were founded in 1994 to protect Utah's rivers and lakes and to conserve water and live sustainably like other Western states. I've been working since the nineties to protect Utah's glorious rivers in the second driest state in the us.

[00:27:05] Chris: More than 50 years ago. My first glimpse of the American desert was seeing this expanse of salt water and then the salt flats beyond that. And it seemed immense and eternal to me. And it, the idea that it might be going away is startling. drying up the Great Salt Lake sounds, apocalyptic.

[00:27:25] Zach: The Great Salt Lake is taken for granted by many people across the country.

And especially inside Utah, because it's this gigantic water body. And when you visit it in person, it oftentimes has such a high, salt content, five times the salt content of the ocean that it's not as crisp, been clean as what we experience, especially when we visit the Pacific. And the Great Salt Lake is obviously the namesake of our state capital Salt Lake City, but it's been ignored for decades and decades.

And people just thought that it was a peculiar feature of Utah in truth the Great Salt Lake is one of the last great wetland ecosystems in north America. When the pioneers started first moving to the west, there were three great remaining wetland ecosystems. At that time where the Colorado River met the sea of Cortez in the Pacific Ocean was a vast wetland ecosystem of something akin to about a million acres of wetlands supporting a thousand species sufficient wildlife in just a very bountiful wet.

ecosystem in this estuary. The second great wetland ecosystem in the American west was the San Francisco Bay. That Delta, there also was more than a million acres of wetlands that were home to some of the most robust fisheries in the Pacific ocean in the entire Northwest. Of course, the Colorado. No longer makes it to the ocean.

And the San Francisco Bay wetlands have been channelized for real estate development for more than a hundred years. So the last great remaining wetland ecosystem in the American west is the Great Salt Lake, which is of hemispheric importance to migratory birds, more than 8 million. Birds travel from every country in the Americas from 330 species that stop over.

at the lake for a portion of their migrations. And some of them gather in larger population numbers than anywhere else on the entire planet. The Great Salt Lake is such an important ecosystem to migratory birds that it has been considered for RAMSAR status, uh, international wetland designation for a long time.

And so. If we are not able to find a way to live sustainably alongside the Great Salt Lake here in Utah, it's not just a problem for Utah. It's a problem for birds in central and south America. We tend to think of these things as being localized. And about Utah policy, but what's being determined now is what is the fate of these bird populations that are literally coming from across the Western hemisphere?

[00:30:39] Chris: So what is Going on right now with the lake?

[00:30:42] Zach: The Great Salt Lake is shrinking as a function of two primary impacts. The biggest impacts so far that we've seen are upstream water diversions for both cities and agriculture. So we're seeing. Water diverted upstream before it enters the Great Salt Lake, which is shrinking the total volume of the lake.

It's estimated the lake would be 12 feet higher right now were it not for upstream water diversions. Now at first glance, 12 feet might not sound like a lot when you think of this really gigantic lake, but the average depth of the lake is only nine feet. So when we say it would be 12 feet higher, that's a big deal.

We have lost a tremendous amount of the Great Salt Lake because of our profligate water use in Utah, we in Utah are America's number one. Municipal water users per person. So we are the country's biggest water wasters. So that's the first impact of why the lake has shrunk so much. The second one is climate change.

And when we talk about climate change, we think about obviously air temperature increases. And we think that it's getting hotter and that leads people to think about summer and summer heat, which is all true. But what we need to think about when it comes to water supply is winter, because what we're doing in climate change is we're increasing our wintertime air temperatures as well.

And as we do that, we shrink our snowpacks down. So 90% of the water. That is coming on the surface into the Great Salt Lake comes from the melting of our snow pack. Mm-hmm . So obviously if we shrink our snowpack down because of increased wintertime air temperatures, then we're shrinking the amount of water in the lake.

And that's what happens. Winter happens later in the year and it ends earlier in the spring. So we have less total months of winter in the headwaters of the Great Salt Lake and then the lower elevation areas of the watershed that. 50 years ago, they used to be covered by snow because those areas are warmer.

They're no longer covered by snow and it's melting into the ground instead of into the rivers and eventually flowing into the Great Salt Lake. So the two biggest impacts we've got in shrinking, the Great Salt Lake are climate change and upstream water diversions.

[00:33:11] Alicia: That is depressing. Are there any plans in the works to allow more water to flow back into the lake?

[00:33:18] Zach: The state of Utah is proposing one of the largest new water projects in the entire United States called Bear River Development. And it is a three plus billion-dollar new water project with three new dams to build a 100. Long pipeline diversion of the largest water source to the Great Salt Lake, which is the Bear River.

The Bear River is this critical link in the ecosystem chain 'cause the Bear River provides 60% of the surface water in flow that flows into the Great Salt Lake every single year. And the fact that it's such a large water volume is the exact reason why the state of Utah. Governor Cox seeks to divert the Bear River to provide additional lawn and garden water for the metropolitan region of the Wasatch front, which is the region from Salt Lake City to Ogden

and so for this region's future and current population growth, the state of Utah wants to divert the Bear River so that residents have more lawn water to water their lawns in the summer. And, uh, thereby that would divert the waters of the Great Salt Lake and shrink the Great Salt Lake several more feet down in elevation and make even a smaller total lake than what we see today.

So it's already shrunk significantly. And I was reading that they're worried about arsenic and other chemicals getting whipped up and dust and blown around. Have the people who wanna take more water from the Great Salt Lake, had an opportunity to understand. That's what they're looking at for the exchange for the water, the entities that are proposing, Bear River Development and other water diversions like it have not prioritized the impacts.

Of the air quality and the public health in their thinking in planning and advancing this proposed water project. In fact, they have ignored those public health concerns each and every time they have arisen in the public dialogue, they've said, oh, that, that does sound. Like a concern we should evaluate, but they haven't stopped so far.

Proponents of Bear River Development have spent, oh, somewhere around 40 million to advance this project. We anticipate this year, they'll spend another eight to $10 million to continue advancing the project. And. What we need to understand is that part of public policy is about facts and information and deliberating science and the role of all of this information in the context of a new policy.

But a lot of what policy making is about are lobbyists. And special interests and propaganda campaigns. And when it comes to Bear River Development and frankly water in general, what we tend to see are propaganda campaigns ignoring the impacts on the working people that are supposedly. Benefiting in the future from this proposed water projects, namely they've been ignoring the impacts of air quality that we're all experiencing now as residents along the Wasatch Front, when the wind blows.

[00:36:53] Alicia: That was my next question. What's the measurable difference in the air quality with the amount of shrinkage on well of the lake that you've already seen?.

[00:37:03] Zach: It is off the charts, both figuratively and literally our state has color codes that it uses to educate the public about current air quality. And so on a good day, we're in a green air day.

And as our air quality gets worse, it goes to yellow and then it goes to orange and then it goes to red. The highest color code is maroon that's the worst quality of air when particulate matter concentrations are at their highest, the Wasatch Front is like a cereal box with residents living at the bottom, 'cause we're bound on both sides by mountains.

And so the air quality days in that color codes. Are meant to communicate to the public. Here's the degree of concern with which you should modify your activities outdoors. But now that the Great Salt Lake has shrunk in just the last 10 years, the number of days where we've had these air quality days where the particulate matter concentrations are so high.

It is literally off their color-coding chart. There are no more colors to associate it with because the Great Salt Lake is shrunk down relatively quickly. These dust storms that are depositing arsenic and methyl, mercury, and other compounds that are not safe to breathe into our lungs. Events are happening much more frequently in these big windstorms and the public has no real meaningful leadership about why this is happening and what is the cause of it, because we literally have these events that are off the charts and there is no one out educating the public in state government about why this is happening at the same.

That proponents of Bear River Development are literally presenting inside the state house that we need Bear River Development to sustain our economies.

[00:39:04] Chris: So you mentioned that there's a fair amount of political support for development and certainly pressure from lobbyists and that kind of thing. What about people on the ground?

I know that for a long time here in California, there was a distinct divide between people who are willing to tear out their lawns and put bricks in the back of the toilet. Or if they had 300 extra bucks put in a low flow toilet and they were well ahead of the developers and that politicos here.

What's it like in Utah?

[00:39:33] Zach: Wow. That's a really good question. The great news is that the people of Utah are very frustrated about what they see happening at the Great Salt Lake they're cognizant of the Lake's decline. They're worried about the air quality impacts. They want the Great Salt Lake to continue to exist in the future.

They want to coexist sustainably with the lake and the critters that need it to survive. Utahns are very frustrated when they see water waste. What's typically happening is that the water waste we see in Utah is by a number of bad players that are outta touch, but are following a system that was created by policy makers, which have unwittingly encouraged water.

Waste Utahns are America's number one, highest municipal water user in the country. 'Cause we have the cheapest water in the country. So that's just basic market economics. Obviously any commodity that is inexpensive means that when consumers demand it, they will purchase it in higher quantity. And so it's very easy for us to influence behavior through such simple mechanisms as price increases.

And it's one of many. We can take steps to protect the Great Salt Lake for current and future generations.

[00:40:53] Chris: What about tribal involvement? Where are the tribes on this? Are there any with close interests, still historic interest, obviously, but are there any in close proximity to the lake that have been affected perhaps disproportionately? are there tribes taking stands in one direction or the other?

[00:41:12] Zach: Yes. The Northwest band of the Shoshone nation have historically resided along the lands of the Bear River. The Bear River itself has many sacred sites to the Northwest band of the Shoshone because their elders are believed to be buried along the river's edge.

All throughout the Bear River in its course to the Great Salt Lake. And so the Northwest band of the Shoshone have been particularly active in expressing concerns about the fate and future of the Great Salt Lake, especially in light of. Proposed Bear River Development and the reservoirs that would inundate many of these sacred sites.

So there's been a lot of indigenous voices coming to the table, expressing the need. To live within our means along the Great Salt Lake, along the shores of the Great Salt Lake, whether those voices are really being considered by policy makers right now is an open question, but there's no question that there's really important cultural history that should be respected by Utah residents in regards to living sustainably next to the Bear River and the Great Salt Lake.

[00:42:26] Alicia: You're talking about the way to control water consumption is to charge more money. Which I know that some people firmly believe that water should be free and available to anyone and everyone who needs it. Do you think water is a commodity or do you believe that the service getting the water to people is the commodity being sold?

[00:42:49] Zach: There's no question that affordable water is a basic human right. And a human necessity. And that we should not price water to discourage personal consumption for, especially our indoor water uses for our essential needs. So there's absolutely no question that if we charge too much for water, that. It's oppressive and we're not recognizing the role of water as a basic human right to live on this planet.

When we talk about water, we always think about ourselves as residents. We think about our house, how we use water inside, how we use water outside. And that's an important reflection, but how we use water in our cities tends to be gigantic institutions and large lot landowners that are not using water as an essential activity.

And they're being sent a signal that this thing is this precious substance that supports living beings, the water. Isn't just a human right. Water is a right for all living creatures. So here in Utah, our rivers provide habitat for 80% of our wildlife species because we are this second driest state in the country.

The wildlife species need. Have their rivers exist for everything from migration corridors to prey bases, to being water sources, to. Everything to, to nesting in for migratory birds, for songbirds, for Raptors. So water isn't just a basic human right. Water is an essential animal, right as well. And so if we are not able to encourage, especially wasteful consumers, institutions, government owned, golf courses, schools, universities, churches.

If we're not able to send a signal that this stuff is precious, then we are clearly. Failing as human beings to live sustainably with water.

[00:44:49] Alicia: Thank you for that thorough dive.

[00:44:51] Zach: Yeah. It's a really important thing that the thing that we find most prevalent in water education is lip service about how valuable water is.

The thing we don't really see in water is price signals for large institutions. There's elementary schools here that turn on their water during rainstorms, and they'll use 1 million gallons of water in one watering cycle on one day. And that water really came from somewhere. It really came from a river.

It really is not going to get back to that river because it's evaporating into the sky or it's flowing into the gutters. So when we don't value freshwater ecosystems financially, then what we find is that, of course we take them for granted and they get destroyed. And that's basically where we're at with the Great Salt Lake today, because it's not protected.

[00:45:48] Chris: These days, you see conservationists spending a lot of time talking about the year 2030 and what we will have accomplished and protected by then. What do you see for the lake in 2030 or 2050?

[00:45:59] Zach: So in 2021, the Great Salt Lake reached a new historic low because of the upstream water diversions and climate change.

The Great Salt Lake has never been this low, at least as measured in the end of the summer of 2021. But here we are in 2022, and we are going to experience a new historic low this year for the Great Salt Lake. And we anticipate that each of the next several years, the Great Salt Lake will reach a new historic low in eight or 10 years from now.

We could be at a Great Salt Lake that is really not great anymore, that is the Small Salt Lake; and 10 years from now if you were to ask me, what is the element that we missed. What did we not have in the ingredients list in the recipe to save this gray cell lake that we should have had? I would say it's ethical courage.

What we are really missing is the courage to act with conviction, to save the lake. We in Utah are so afraid of making political waves of offending people in power, that we are afraid to criticize our elected officials for their failure. And I just wonder, at what point do we decide that it's time to be courageous and to not be cowards?

We need our people to show up and be brave and criticize our elected officials for their failed natural resource policy on the Great Salt Lake. Make no mistake about this. What is drying up? The Great Salt Lake is greed and avarice and a lack of courage.

[00:47:48] Chris: What can people that are listening to this do to help the lake or to help you help the lake?

[00:47:54] Zach: So that's a great question. What we want people to understand is that they can make a really big difference in the fight to save the American west's last great. wetland ecosystem, the Great Salt Lake. What people can do is call their member of Congress today and say, Hey, I just heard a really disturbing thing about the Great Salt Lake that is threatened, that it's the American West's last great wetland ecosystem, and that we need to save it.

That's what it's gonna take, we have to protect the Great Salt Lake from outside of Utah. The Utah state legislature is not going to lift a finger ultimately to save the lake because the legislature is generally resistant and reluctant to take meaningful steps. To live harmoniously with nature. We see that again and again in state policy, but members of Congress have a lot of sway over it.

Look, the Great Salt Lake is a wetland habitat that is critical to our friends living in other countries in south and central America. This isn't just about Utah's policy. This is about the United States policy about protecting the last great wetland ecosystem in the west. And so it's time for Congress to take steps forward.

It's time for Congress to act. Now anybody hearing this inside Utah can call their Utah legislator and say, I want meaningful leadership to save the Great Salt Lake. I want to see my Utah legislator inside the Utah state house, do something to save the Great Salt Lake. But so far we have yet to see really anything out of the Utah legislature that's gonna do.

Of what is needed to save the lake. And the last thing they can do is visit our website at utahrivers.org, and learn about the Great Salt Lake and learn about Bear River Development and the many inexpensive alternatives, because the more informed people are about what the threats are to the Great Salt Lake, the more effective they're gonna be having a conversation.

With their elected officials. I have to say that reaching out to people outside of Utah is really what gives me hope because here in Utah, like I have the conversation so often about like, why should we save water? And you guys I'm flattered at the chance to be able to speak to you and your audience today.

[00:50:25] Chris: Okay. Zach, thank you so much for your time.

[00:50:28] Zach: Thank you. Thank you both. It was wonderful to meet you guys. So

[00:50:31] Alicia: thank you so much.

[00:50:36] Bouse Parker: This episode of 90 miles from needles was produced by Alicia pike and Chris Clarke editing by Chris podcast artwork by our good friend Martin Mancha theme music is by Brightside studio, other music by slipstream. Follow us on Twitter on Instagram and at 90MIfrom needles and on facebook@facebook.com slash 90 miles from needles.

Listen to us at 90 miles from needles.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you to David Smith and Zach Frankel for the interviews and to 90 miles from needles studio dogs Heart and dose for their contributions. Thanks to our newest Patreon supporter. Linda Gibson support this podcast by visiting us at 90milesfrom needles.com/patreon.

And making a monthly pledge of as little as five bucks or visit 90milesfrom needles.com/k O F I to make a one time contribution. Our Patreon supporters enjoy privileges including early access to this episode. Crucial support for this podcast came from Tad coffin and Lara Rozzell, all characters on this podcast receive between 25 and 250 millimeters of rainfall each year.

This is Bouse Parker reminding you that sometimes you get the bear. And sometimes the Bear River gets you. See you next time.

[00:52:55] Chris: Sit Heart, sit. good dog.

utah rivers council

S1E16 Flood and Drought; Death Valley and the Great Salt Lake