The writer Edward Abbey is revered by many desert activists, and roundly criticized by others, all based on the provocative and occasionally offensive things he wrote. Chris and Alicia talk about the prescient and helpful things Abbey wrote, and about the things they wish that neither Abbey nor anyone else had ever said, some of which have gained currency among the most violent practitioners of rightwing politics.
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Bouse Parker: The sun is a giant blow torch aimed at your face. There ain't no shade nowhere. Let's hope you brought enough water. It's time for 90 Miles from Needles, the desert protection podcast with your hosts, Chris Clarke, and Alicia Pike
Chris: I'm Chris Clarke
Alicia: and I'm Alicia Pike. And this is 90 Miles from Needles.
Chris: I will say right up front that Edward Abbey's writing has had a significant influence on my life. For all that Ed Abbey was on frequent occasions, deliberately provocative in his writing, one might even say, trollish, I might not have the sensibility I have today If it wasn't for Ed Abbey. I might not live where I live today If it wasn't for Ed Abbey. When I first mentioned that we were thinking of doing an episode of this podcast on some of the more unsavory things Ed Abbey had written, namely has support for the idea that white people in America were in danger of being replaced by people of color with other cultures, I got significant pushback on social media. Most people that responded were more or less supportive of the idea at the very least, they understood what I had in mind, but there were a few people that I think mistrusted the whole idea of looking at the less helpful things that people they hold as environmental heroes have said in our lives; Mistrusted the whole idea of criticizing the opinions those heroes have expressed. And to me, this pushback seemed pretty anti-progressive. Sure. It can be uncomfortable to look at the flaws in people we admire. And I personally approached the project of looking at some of Ed Abbey's more troubling opinions with a fair bit of nuance, and I'll be the first to admit that that's a luxurious position made available to me by the privilege I have in this world.
There are people in this world that, who I respect greatly who have no time to waste thinking about Ed Abbey, who have rejected him out of whole cloth for the misogyny in his writings, for his shoddy literary treatment of native people, for his statements on immigration. And then as I mentioned, there are people on another side of that divide who rejects the nuance from the other direction, who fear that any criticism of the mans, writing or any other aspect of his character is tantamount to what's lately called cancellation of the helpful and useful things he may have written. And I do think that he wrote some helpful and useful things.
Now, remember I have no particular quarrel with people that find Ed Abbey's writing so offensive that they just want to exclude him from their own personal canon of desert writers or of environment writers. I don't have a problem with that. I thoroughly understand that. And besides there are so many wonderful desert writers who don't write jocularly about hitting women in the head with boat oars to pick one particular example of an Abbeyism and who wouldn't dream of categorizing an entire race of people based on a stereotype.
We have Terry Tempest Williams, Ruben Martinez, John Anna Reno, bill Broyles, Ann Zwinger, Craig Childs, Gary Nabhan, Ellen Meloy, Ben Ehrenreich; desert writers are thick on the ground these days. We're not limited to reading Ed Abbey. If you don't want to read his work, you don't have to. It's a pretty luxurious position.
But far from resisting discussion of his more problematic writings. I think those of us who still find some value in some of the things that Ed Abbey wrote, as I do have a particular responsibility to highlight those problematic writings and to discuss them honestly.
Why this episode, why are we looking at this now?
Well, on May 14th, 2022, two weeks ago, as I speak a racist white 18-year-old man from a rural part of upstate New York, not far from where I was born, drove to Buffalo, looking for a neighborhood with the highest percentage of African-American people that he could find. And on arriving, he killed 10 people Mostly elderly, mostly women, all of them Black while he livestreamed the massacre. This 18-year-old white racist shooter had written things on social media espousing, the great replacement theory, the idea that America — and other countries too but in this particular case, America — that America's white culture is under threat of replacement by nonwhite people and their cultures.
I don't think I need to explain that this is a preposterous theory based in irrational and unjustified fear, in cowardice, in bigotry and hatred. And I lived in Buffalo in the 1970s and early 1980s. And for part of that time, I lived near the neighborhood where this assassination, this, this massacre of grocery shopping grandmothers happened.
And I'm also a desert activist, and writer, which in a sense makes me a colleague of Ed Abbey. And those two facts are sitting together in my head, rather uncomfortably because Edward Abbey himself expressed support for the great replacement theory, if not in name, then in essence. And we have evidence. and I will confess to being amused at how unwilling I am to read this next passage for fear that the internet being what it is, someone will edit it out of context and share it and make it appear that we at 90 Miles from Needles actually endorse this nonsense. And so I'm relegating reading of the next passage to our robot announcer.
Bouse Parker: According to the morning newspaper, the population of America will reach 267 million by 2000 AD an increase of 40 million or about one sixth in only 17 years. And the racial composition of the population will also change Considerably. The white birth rate is about 60 per thousand females. The Negro rate, 83 per thousand and the Hispanic rate, 96 per thousand. Am I a racist? I guess I am. I certainly do not wish to live in a society dominated by Blacks or Mexicans or Orientals. Look at Africa at Mexico at Asia Garrett Hardin compares our situation to an overcrowded lifeboat in a sea of drowning bodies. If we take more aboard the boat will be swamped and we'll all go under. Militarize our borders, the lifeboat is listing.
Chris: that passage was taken from a compilation of Abbey's private writings published as Confessions of a Barbarian after his death in 1989. He wrote it in 1983 in a moment of frustration that the New York times, and then several other publications had rejected an essay of his entitled Immigration and liberal taboos. which was eventually published by the Phoenix new times, that essay included passages such as this one:
Bouse Parker: These uninvited millions bring with them an alien mode of life, which let us be honest about this is not appealing to the majority of Americans. Why not? Because we prefer democratic government for one thing, because we still hope for an open spacious, uncrowded, and beautiful, yes, beautiful society. For another, the alternative in the squalor, cruelty and corruption of Latin America is plain for all to see.
Chris: And there's this:
Bouse Parker: The United States has been fully settled and more than full for at least a century. We have nothing to gain and everything to lose by allowing the old boat to be swamped. How many of us truthfully would prefer to be submerged in the Caribbean Latin version of civilization? Howls of racism, elitism, xenophobia from the Marx brothers and the documented liberals. Harsh words. But somebody has to say them. We cannot play let's pretend much longer, not in the present world. Therefore, let us close our national borders to any further mass immigration legal or illegal from any source.
Chris: Now I'll give Abbey this much. He did say from any source, presumably that included England and Norway and Canada. And so it wasn't just a racist belief. Racism was just one facet of this opinion. on occasion, you'll hear people refer to Abbey's writings of this kind as deliberate provocation. They say he didn't really mean it. They say that in real life, he was a gentle, thoughtful soul who loved people, and enough people that I know who knew Abbey have said the same thing.
And in fact, here's Abbey saying just that himself in an interview for an NBC news program that never actually aired.
Ed Abbey: I see myself as an entertainer, I'm trying to write good books, make people laugh, make them cry. Provoke ‘em. Make ‘em angry, make ‘em think, if possible, to get a reaction, give pleasure. I do not see myself as a social commentator because I don't look at any of these things we've been talking about hard enough. I'm not really skilled at it, but I like to write, I like to throw words around and if I can give pleasure in that forum, I feel I'm earning my pay.
Chris: Of course, Abbey wrote some of the stuff in his own private journal, presumably not intending it to be seen by the reading public, which undermines the provocateur argument somewhat.
But here's the thing. As a writer, I'm fully aware that the face of writer presents to the world Isn't the whole story. We all have our personas. We all accentuate the rough edges that amuse us, and we grind down those rough edges that don’t. Writers curate bits of themselves to portray in writing and often inflate the importance of those bits. And there are hidden depths in any writers that hold fears and joys and flaws and strengths that never make it onto the page, but all that depth doesn't change what the words say. We, the readers aren't privy to the things the writer left out. All we have to go on is what the writer didn't leave out. All we have to judge Ed Abbey by is this provocateur persona. The question of whether he meant these things is kind of beside the point to put it in modern terms. There's a point at which after spending months and years pretending to be an asshole on the internet, you're just an asshole.
So here's the question some people asked me on social media When I mentioned this looming episode, why is it important to point this out? Sure, the timing reminds us of it. The timing reminds us of his unfortunate and misguided and basically hateful opinion. Why dredge it up?
When I moved to the desert and I looked for other activists to work with on desert protection, I was 48 years old. This was in 2008. I would go to meetings of desert activists, and I was often the youngest or second youngest person in the room. There was a cohort of regulars. All of whom had been pivotal in the passage of the California desert protection act of 1994. Some of them had worked on the establishment of the California desert conservation area in 1980 and before. Now, these were great people that are knowledgeable expert experienced wise and usually welcoming. And the meetings reminded me sadly, of those Joshua tree forests where local conditions aren't conducive to the survival of seedlings anymore. All you see in such a forest is mature trees. That desert protection movement in 2008 was an even aged stand with near zero recruitment. It looked as though, as a movement would die out of old age, like the Shakers. (If you don't understand that reference, Google the Shakers, you won't be sorry.)
The people in those desert protection meetings were also almost entirely white people, not all of them, but almost all of them. It's different Now. the desert protection meetings I go to, and I go to a lot of them. They're full of young people. And the younger people I work with these days are a lot browner than that older cohort in 2008. the desert protection movement looks a lot like the Southwestern United States, In fact, with native people, Latinx people and African Americans and Asian Pacific Islanders and whites and people of decidedly mixed ancestry.
And we have a better movement because of that change. It has a future now, but even among that diverse young cohort, that's showing some enthusiasm for the desert. There's still reluctance to be found to throwing in with a movement to defend a living desert landscape, because conservation is still often seen as a white people thing.
And screeds like Ed Abbey's note in his journals about white culture being replaced only tell people that desert conservation will not welcome people like them. Once that immigration essay that Abbey was complaining about finally got published in the Phoenix New Times, its last paragraph got a lot of attention and continues to when people are discussing Abbey's opinion on immigration.
Bouse Parker: Or if we must meddle, as we have always done, let us meddle for a change in a constructive way, stop every campus know at our Southern border, give him a handgun, a good rifle and a case of ammunition and send him home. He will know what to do with our gifts and good wishes. the people know who their enemies are.
Chris: Some people find a defense of Abbey here, a sort of anti-imperialist veneer. I used to agree. But when you talk about conscripting refugees into fighting the wars that we provoke in our client states, which we could end by striking a line item from the CIA's budget, that kind of rings hollow.
You also sometimes hear the old chestnut that we can't judge a person's past statements by today's standards. And I can only say that those words were written in 1983. I remember 1983 just fine. We knew perfectly well in 1983, that racism was bullshit. There are just two things that distinguish the sentiment in Abbey's immigration writings from those expressed by our previously reigning commander in chief. The first is Abbey's honesty about wanting to end legal immigration, a desire the Trump regime shared, but was afraid to own up to the other. Abbey wrote his opinions in complete coherent sentences. I've been thinking about the massacre in Buffalo, but there are other things you can trace. Other connections you can make. A friend of mine went out to the Southern edge of Organ pipe National Monument in 2019 and took some photos that got a lot of attention. border wall construction had begun in the Sonoran Desert and contractors working for the department of Homeland security were killing the column cacti that Organ pipe cactus National Monument was established.
The border wall replaced a vehicle barrier installed in the mid 2000s. And I reported on that installation at Earth Island Journal. And we'll put a link to that reporting in our show notes. The intent of the vehicle barrier, which was a post every six or eight feet with a bar across it, was to keep smugglers from driving through the wilderness while allowing travelers on foot, including Sonoran pronghorn and tortoises and pinacate beetles and people from Oaxaca looking for a better life free passage. And like most kinds of freedom, free passage is anathema to many people in power. So that vehicle barrier was replaced. The crews took saguaros, knocked them down, pushed them in piles with bulldozers.
This shouldn't have been shocking. We've long known what the wall would do to the saguaros and the organ pipe cacti, to pronghorn and Mexican wolves and other wildlife to public safety. One version of the wall or another has been proposed seriously since the Clinton administration. there's been study after study, report after report, about the damage that the wall would cause.
And of course, I am not claiming that Ed Abbey is responsible for the border wall because of his writings on the topic of immigration. I am not claiming that Ed Abbey is responsible for the massacre in Buffalo because of his Writings on something very much like the great replacement theory. I’d like to think that if Abbey had survived, the disease that killed him in 1989, if he had lived into his nineties, he would have felt the same revulsion Many of us feel that the avarice and cruelty and intellectual and curiosity and ecological rapacity and sheer shit-headedness of the right wing.
But thoughts like those, he espoused took root in the fetid minds of the hateful, and this is a result. And that's why I feel it's incumbent on those of us who would like to see Ed Abbey maintain his place in the pantheon of desert writers to be upfront and honest about where he let us down, about where his writings threatened to exclude entire sectors of society from working to protect the deserts that he loved.
And if I'm being honest, I would much rather work with the people he would have excluded then with the people who want us to sweep Abbey's peccadilloes under the rug.
Alicia: And we'll be back after the break.
Bouse Parker: Here's a 90 Miles from Needles public service announcement.
Alicia: We just want to take a moment of your time to remind you that Joshua trees are in trouble, and we need your help.
On June 15th, the California Fish and Game Commission will take a vote on whether or not to list the Joshua tree as threatened, and we need your help to persuade them to do the right thing. Get your comments in. 90MilesfromNeedles.com/joshua will take you to an action alert where you can make your feelings known to the Fish and Game Commission.
You can make comments through June 13th. It may only take 90 seconds of your time to fill out an action alert, but it's protection for the Joshua tree for the rest of all of our lives. For more information, listen to episode nine of 90 Miles from Needles where we talk extensively about the Joshua tree protections.
Once again, that's 90MilesfromNeedles.com/joshua.
Petey Mesquitey: Hello, I'm Petey Mesquitey, host of Growing Native from KXCI Tucson. each week since 1992, I've been sharing stories, poems, and songs about floor off on a family and the glory of living in the borderlands of Southern Arizona. Recent episodes of Growing Native are available @kxci.org, apple podcasts, and PRX. The desert is beautiful, my friends. Yeah, it is.
Chris: Do you have a desert related podcast or website or newsletter or something similar that you'd like us to promote? Let us know. (760) 392-1996.
Bouse Parker: You're listening to 90 Miles from Needles, the desert protection podcast, confusion, and irritability are the first signs of heat injury and of hosting a podcast.
Chris: So it was interesting to me to know that despite your affection for the desert and your longtime commitment to being here and to protecting it and learning all you can about it, that you had not read…
Alicia: still have not read Desert Solitaire. I've even been given a copy to read. And so it sits on my bedside table.
Alicia: It's just, it's one of those classic recommendations and it usually comes to me in the form of a recommendation from a man. I know
Chris: you're talking about men in general, not one particular man that keeps recommending it to you.
Alicia: No, there've been at least three that I can think of in the last six months.
Chris: So it’s the Infinite Jest of the desert…
Alicia: “you love the desert? You should read this book.” There's nothing quite like a recommendation like that to make me say, “Hmm, I guess I'm not going to read that one first.” And for me, I've just, I've spent my time getting to know the desert through science, not through other people's lens. And I don't know that I really want to read some old codger telling me that nature's going to hell in a handbasket. I can see that with my own eyes. And I don't want to know how good he had it. And I don't want to hear about how this guy had a great time tinkering around in nature, unencumbered. Cause it's very hard to do these days.
Chris: So when people are recommending the book to you, what do they say about it?
Alicia: Literally? “Oh, you love the desert. You should read Desert Solitaire.” I mean, I've seen it on the internet. I've been personally referred and... There's a lot of it: Yes. Okay. I'm being told I should do something. If I do this, then I should do that. And I just don't know what it is about that book that I just don't feel it's really necessary. I feel like I'm living my own Desert Solitaire and I'll get there when I get there. I'm sure there's a lot of valuable perspective. I
Chris: I think the fact that you have gotten where you are without reading Ed Abbey and you're as committed as you are Is really good news, because I think of young people growing up in Southern California or Arizona who are interested in the desert, they're thinking about the development that's going on in the desert, thinking about the things that are lost the saguaros, the Joshua trees, just the open landscape, getting converted into strip malls.
And if they happen to be of Mexican or Asian or African American ancestry, they might listen to something like that. Op-ed that he'd written, criticizing immigration and decide “I'm not welcome in this movement.”
Alicia: Yeah, what's really hitting me right now is that I feel like borders really don't matter. We are as a global population changing there's too many of us to stay segregated. We can't self-segregate anymore. It's time to evolve Our way of thinking in regard to other people. I know that that's not easy, but that's, for me, that's the point that I try to argue.
Chris: Yeah. I agree. You hear that “Well, he's a product of his time and what was a different time when he wrote that for himself, and he might not have written it now.” And it's possible that if he had lived past 1989 and was still around that he might be horrified by that. Who knows?
Alicia: I wouldn't be surprised to see that on Some conservative talk show.
Chris: In fact, the concept that white people are going to be replaced in the United States and we need to lock down our borders is like pretty much mainstream, Republican thinking at this point.
Alicia: it's bizarre really, and not working together as a global community is definitely part of that downfall. We need to look past the color of the skin, the cultural specificities, and work as a global community. We need to work together, not against each other.
Chris: I understand what it's like to really like and feel supportive and defensive of an officer, but it takes a special kind of denial to say that it is not appropriate to look at what old dead white people have written.
It's the same dynamic as I used to run into when I would say, “hey, this solar stuff that you're trying to put in the desert, there are downsides. There are reasons not to do it this way.” And people would say, “why don't you work on opposing new coal-fired power plants instead of getting in our way, when we want to pave 400,000 acres of desert?” People don't want to have to look at the downsides.
And with this, it's not just about different ideas of land use and things like that. There are actual living people who are being denigrated, who are being excluded, being victimized.
Alicia: You know you're onto something that's important to talk about when people in so many words tell you, “Sweep that shit under the rug and focus on something else. This is more important. That's more important.”
Chris: yeah. It's not like it's actually more important to them. It's just a way of short circuiting, the conversation. And I'm saying this as somebody that has a copy of almost everything Ed Abbey wrote on my bookshelves. And I've re-read most of them several times and I will probably continue to do so. And I will probably continue to appreciate the things in his writing that mean something to me and analyze and take apart and think about the stuff that he wrote that rings as racist or misogynistic, or just generally needlessly misanthropic, his sort of colonizer mentality about The Southwestern landscape. That's a problem. And that's worthy of analysis. It's worthy of being dissected. I thoroughly understand if people don't want to deal with Ed Abbey because of the stuff that he said that is really problematic. I am very aware that I'm an old white. And that's way easier for me to be comfortable reading his stuff.
I like to think that he would have paid attention and had some experiences and talk to people and said, maybe I was wrong. I would like to think that, but the fact is that he didn't change his mind and his legacy is what it is. And are we just going to blindly accept it or are we going to take it apart, see if there's anything useful there? I think there is. other people may not, I’m overjoyed to have that discussion.
Alicia: There comes a point as a young woman, I'm 38, but there comes a point where you just don't want to hear men, especially older white men, espouse their ideals any more than you have to. A lot of the books that I read, a lot of the information driving my formation from a child to an adult is given to me by white colonizing male mentality. And That's probably why I naturally balk from doing what I'm told or what I should do or what I should know, because this guy said so. that's when I'm just I’m I'm in the science. Just, I don't care if it was a male or female, like they're doing it for posterity, not just to record their own feelings, but to record activities of nature for posterity.
That's where I really, my desert activism for me. It's desert first. Cause that's where I live. But nature. it's nature in general, all the attitudes that we talk about having towards the desert, I sincerely feel no matter where you are on the globe, these ideas and philosophies should take root and you should feel them because everywhere that we live as human beings, we need to fight to protect what we have left because it's rapidly going away.
We need it to survive no matter what the colonizers tell you. You gotta fight for what feels right. And for me, listening very closely to what nature has to say is very, very important. And love is very important. So whenever we get into conversations that are very tacky and sticky, like we're having right now that unconditional — this is going to sound like some new age bullshit, but this is based spirituality people. If you're alive, this applies to you, — unconditional love and oneness with the universe. That's the deal. If you can start practicing that the world would be a better place. The love that I have for nature, the love that I have for every other human being on this planet, whether I like them or not, that makes living life a lot easier.
It's still hard, but you will run into people whose life you can change just by expressing love instead of opposition. Yeah. We don't always have to agree and it's not easy, especially when people be giving you that face. I get it all the time. I'm a mouthy, expressive young lady, and I've been shut down plenty of times.
And that's cool. That's cool. If you're not going to hear me, I'm not going to waste my energy on you. I'm just going to give you some love and I'm going to move on it. I am okay with so many people who have so many different points of view than me on religion, on philosophy on science, on politics. That's fine.
We don't have to agree to be friends. We don't have to agree to be fighting for the same good outcome in general for the world, but we do need to have some basic respect for each other. And I feel like we've really are losing that in the conversation battle, realizing that we're trying to work towards something we're not just spewing, you know, like we're trying to have a productive conversation.
We're not trying to just trash Ed Abbey and there's value to that. There's value to looking back to our past and saying, this person felt this way. Let's have a look at that.
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Chris: So I keep mentioning that I continue to find value in stuff Ed Abbey wrote, let's take a look at one of the pieces that I still find worthwhile. This is a section of Desert Solitaire, the chapter Industrial Tourism in The National Parks, and we've excerpted it to show something that still has significant relevance to conservation world we find ourselves in today and potentially in analysis, that's helpful if on-brand for Abbey in being a bit… cranky.
Alicia: As I type these words, all that was foretold has come to. Arches National Monument has been developed. The master plan has been fulfilled. where once a few adventurous people came on weekends to camp for a night or two and enjoy a taste of the primitive and remote.
You will now find serpentine streams of automobiles pouring in and out all through the spring and summer in numbers That would have seemed fantastic when I worked there. From 3000 to 30,000 to 300,000 per year, the visitation as they call it mounts ever upward. The little campgrounds where I used to putter around reading three-day old newspapers, full of lies and watermelon seeds, have now been consolidated into one master campground that looks during the busy season, like a suburban village. Elaborate house trailers of quilted aluminum crowd upon gigantic camper trucks of fiberglass and molded plastic. through their windows You will see the blue glow of television and hear the studio laughter of Los Angeles. Down at the beginning of the new road at park headquarters is the new entrance station and visitor center where admission fees are collected and where the Rangers are going quietly nuts answering the same three basic questions, 500 times a day. Where's the John? two. How long does it take to see this place? Three. where's the Coke machine? progress has come at last to the Arches. After a million years of neglect, industrial tourism has arrived.
Chris: As the reporter Connor Knighton shows in this piece on Arches National Park run by CBS news on May 29th, 2022, just a few days before we published this episode, crowds in Arches National Park have grown spectacularly to the point where local boosters, such as developers in Moab are already pushing for new parking lots, new road expansions, new modifications to the park to make it easier to drive in. It seems as though Mr. Abbey's prognostications in the piece, Alicia just read are continuing to come.
Reporter: At Arches National Park Memorial Day weekend is typically the busiest weekend of the year. Over the past two decades, crowds have more than doubled at the park. Last year, it received a record breaking 1.8 million visitors, which meant a lot of days felt like Memorial Day. last year How many times did you have to close that gate?
Ranger: Oh gosh, 158 times. So a lot.
Reporter: And that's for hours at a time?
Ranger: Yes. Yes.
Reporter: This year for the first time ever the park itself is requiring reservations. From April to October tourists hoping to access Arches during peak hours need to have a ticket obtained via recreation.gov. Moab developer, Michael Liss thinks more cars could be accommodated.
Developer: The infrastructure of Arches National Park was designed in the 1950s. They built the one entrance, one entry road. The parking lots have grown, you know, a little bit over the years, but substantially nothing has changed in 70 years. So when I look at this, it's like, isn't it time to upgrade the park?
Chris: So you can definitely see why there are people that really still value the kinds of writings that Ed Abbey did.
Most of park activism these days with a few exceptions is talking about how parks and national monuments are important to the local economy because they bring tourists in. And that used to be... that used to be the conservative point of view, and now it's something that environmentalist's talk about all the time.
This is justification for preserving the National Monuments. This is justification for protecting more National Parks. It's because people will come visit and spend money and boost the economy. And we’ve probably got six or seven different episodes we can do about how that actually looks on the ground near the National Parks.
But years ago, Abbey was talking about this in ways that sound a little outmoded and a little curmudgeonly and a little elitist, to be honest. But nonetheless, it was a real issue that he foresaw. And it's only gotten worse since,
Alicia: I mean, the hardest part about all of that to me is we don't view nature as valuable to our survival. And that is antithetical to being alive. We wouldn't be alive without nature doing its thing. And here we are. Just feeding it into the woodchipper. And I really don't know how much further we can go before all the water is not drinkable before all the air is not breathable.
Chris: In the meantime, there are people in the world that have come to desert activism and completely sidestepped the whole Ed Abbey question.
And that is glorious because that, that means. If you were a 17-year-old woman whose parents came from El Salvador and you're living in Riverside, California, or in Tucson, and you care about the desert, you might be able to just wander into the environmental protection movement and only face the usual amount of bullshit Instead of having this whole legacy literature, anvil falling your head of Ed Abbey and talking about people like. Not belonging here and not being welcome here. And I find the fact that he does not relevant to people really promising.
Alicia: All right. That's all for this time. I'm Alicia Pike.
Chris: and I'm Chris Clarke.
Alicia: This has been 90 Miles from Needles.
Bouse Parker: This episode of 90 Miles from Needles was produced by Alicia Pike and Chris Clarke. editing by Chris. podcast artwork by our good friend, Martin Mancha theme. Music is by Brightside studio, other music by rims tunes. Follow us on Twitter or Instagram @90mifromneedles and on Facebook at facebook.com/ninetymilesfromneedles.
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